22 replies to this topic

[Steve Wilson]

After this past weekend, I am wondering what other teams think about double contests over one weekend.

Here are my thoughts:

I think if a promoter wants to have a double, it should have the following criteria:
1) Be over a 3 day weekend so we have time to clean our gear on the Monday and give us a day to catch up on sleep before going back to work.
2) As these events are extra work and require use to buy more meat and supplies, I think the prize pool needs to be at least $7500 per day and probably $10,000 if the promoter wants to draw a larger field of teams.

Looking at the TOY information, I note that the 2 (not taking Knott's into account) doubleheaders: Brentwood & Phoenix Club were the least supported events in # of teams attending this year with 29 & 26 at Brentwood and 18 &17 at Phoenix Club. Question- would these events have been better supported by a single event? Brentwood had $9200 per day, Phoenix Club only $5000 per day- note the difference in # of teams.

Penn Valley & Siskiyou are coming up July 21st and 28th and are only $5000 for a one day events. As of today they have 17 signed up for Penn Valley, Siskiyou hasn't posted #'s. Is it a money thing? I think most of use do this because it's fun and we are competitive people. Money is not a driving factor. But a 2 day event is not double the fun, it's double the work, stress, and expense.

I am not a fan of the double contest. Would I compete in one again. Yes, but I would prefer not to. What are your thoughts?

Steve
The Pit Crew BBQ

[matt dalton]

I agree Steve..they need to be a TRUE double and by that I mean the prize money should not be split just to have two comps..Chuck did his the right way in my opinion..I also know Skip has said the same if it's a double it needs to be double the money too..the payout at Pheonix club was terrible IMO 500 for grand?..not even enough to cover your costs even if you won..the only time we will do a double again is if we were traveling a long distance already(i.e.the royal)..doubles aren't any fun and if we don't have fun why even do it..I also think Pheonix club would have had more teams if it wasn't right after Pechanga.

Edited by matt dalton, 06 July 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[andy allen]

ya I'm not a big fan of the double either I understand it as a points thing and travel time, but with so many comps now travel isnt really an issue anymore. With the meat cost is double and with low payouts its hard to justify, not to mention 2 nights with very little sleep. One thing that needs to be done is having the awards early if the next day is a work day. I know Henry was trying to get them earlier, and the owner wasn't going for it. but 6pm is too late when you have to work the next day and are low on sleep.

[Ryan Chester]

Not a fan of doubles. Probably won't do another unless it has VERY attractive payouts and/or it's the Royal. Double pain in the ass and too expensive.

[Benny Adauto]

I probably would have competed on one of the two days except for the contest being a week after Pechanga. I've had my share of back to back weekends (including seven in six weeks) and I'm no longer interested. If a double comes up like Knott's where it is close to home and my wife brings me the second day's meats rather than having to travel with it all, then I'll do it again.

[Jerry Aguilar]

Phoenix Club was my first double contest, not a fan of them either.
Higher payout would make it worth it though.

[Henry Silvestre]

Big reason I do the doubles is to give teams (that can't afford $300 for a contest) X 5 (CBBQA) or X 10 (KCBS) a chance to get a couple of contest under their belt for $199 per contest ($399 for 2)... I am dead tired after these as well, they are a ton of work... but they serve a purpose... #1 teams can improve from one day to the other, by making adjustments... See Steve N Beave's #1 in brisket second day, and The Pit Crew's RGC. #2 a team that travels (like Pigskin) and wants national KCBS points.. benefits quite a bit, ONE TRIP -- 2 contest, double points (if they do well) etc... Dennis from 4 smokin Butts Illinois came to Little Engine last year and secured several top 20 spots (a few top 10's) in the KCBS 2011 race by doing well at the contests... Payouts are what they are because of 1st year event.. If I say $10,000 a day payout-- with 50 Teams would we get 50 teams both days?-- it's easy to do... I can put stipulations that raise the prize pool as team count goes up== like Dale is doing in Vista--

I do agree with Andy-- second day awards need to be at 4:30pm - 5pm at the latest..

[matt dalton]

 Henry Silvestre, on 06 July 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Big reason I do the doubles is to give teams (that can't afford $300 for a contest) X 5 (CBBQA) or X 10 (KCBS) a chance to get a couple of contest under their belt for $199 per contest ($399 for 2)... I am dead tired after these as well, they are a ton of work... but they serve a purpose... #1 teams can improve from one day to the other, by making adjustments... See Steve N Beave's #1 in brisket second day, and The Pit Crew's RGC. #2 a team that travels (like Pigskin) and wants national KCBS points.. benefits quite a bit, ONE TRIP -- 2 contest, double points (if they do well) etc... Dennis from 4 smokin Butts Illinois came to Little Engine last year and secured several top 20 spots (a few top 10's) in the KCBS 2011 race by doing well at the contests... Payouts are what they are because of 1st year event.. If I say $10,000 a day payout-- with 50 Teams would we get 50 teams both days?-- it's easy to do... I can put stipulations that raise the prize pool as team count goes up== like Dale is doing in Vista--

I do agree with Andy-- second day awards need to be at 4:30pm - 5pm at the latest..

If teams can't afford a 300 entry fee how could they afford 400?..it's not the entry fee that people can't afford it's the fact you have to buy double EVERYTHING..meat ain't cheap..second with so many contest on the schedule teams will get their 5 and 10 pretty easy without doubles..example we already have done 11 and with about 10 more planned so those that are chasing points cost isn't an issue..as for getting your 5 for cbbqa the top 10-12 teams already have their 5 and are now knocking out low scores..plus you have the fact in KCBS that team count factors in and last year it came down to winning big contests not 17-18 teamers...also with the holidays in December 4 contests within a few weeks can really hurt those that can't afford contests plus it's family time..and in the end Henry your promoting contests to make money right?.

[Dale Ginos]

Not a big double fan. As stated before, this is a hobby for most of us. After a double Monday AM comes a lot earlier than it should. That being said, "If you don't like the rules, don't play the game". That is why I don't do doubles. You won't find a double in Vista, just reasonable entry fees and a fair payout. Oh, and fabulous weather!

[Sylvie Curry]

I had no problem doing the double contest in Anaheim. I look at it as setting up site and breaking it down once for two contests. Would have liked there to be a bigger prize pool but then sometimes that isn't important for a contest close to home.

17-18 teams is small but then we were all still having fun. I'm not a point chaser so that wasn't an issue for me. Would I do it again? Yes. That was my second back to back contest cooking solo and hopefully not my last.

[matt dalton]

 Sylvie Curry, on 07 July 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

I had no problem doing the double contest in Anaheim. I look at it as setting up site and breaking it down once for two contests. Would have liked there to be a bigger prize pool but then sometimes that isn't important for a contest close to home.

17-18 teams is small but then we were all still having fun. I'm not a point chaser so that wasn't an issue for me. Would I do it again? Yes. That was my second back to back contest cooking solo and hopefully not my last.

Yet you lost money doing it right?

[Sylvie Curry]

 matt dalton, on 07 July 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Yet you lost money doing it right?

No more than single contest where I didn't do well. I walked away from this one with $400 in prize money.

Your recent Iowa contest only had $5500 in prize money. Did you lose money doing it?

[Steve Wilson]

 Henry Silvestre, on 06 July 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Big reason I do the doubles is to give teams (that can't afford $300 for a contest) X 5 (CBBQA) or X 10 (KCBS) a chance to get a couple of contest under their belt for $199 per contest ($399 for 2)... I am dead tired after these as well, they are a ton of work... but they serve a purpose... #1 teams can improve from one day to the other, by making adjustments... See Steve N Beave's #1 in brisket second day, and The Pit Crew's RGC. #2 a team that travels (like Pigskin) and wants national KCBS points.. benefits quite a bit, ONE TRIP -- 2 contest, double points (if they do well) etc... Dennis from 4 smokin Butts Illinois came to Little Engine last year and secured several top 20 spots (a few top 10's) in the KCBS 2011 race by doing well at the contests... Payouts are what they are because of 1st year event.. If I say $10,000 a day payout-- with 50 Teams would we get 50 teams both days?-- it's easy to do... I can put stipulations that raise the prize pool as team count goes up== like Dale is doing in Vista--

I do agree with Andy-- second day awards need to be at 4:30pm - 5pm at the latest..

I agree with Matt. The entry fee is not an issue for 1 or 2 day contests. Granted a two day contest does generate more points for both CBBQA TOY & KCBS, but with so many contests, is there really a need for more point paying opportunity? I think not.
Sylvie and others, which would you rather attend of the two following examples:

Location: Same place for both examples. Date: same weekend.

1) $300 entry fee. One day contest for $10,000 prize pool with GC @ $2000, RGC @ $1000 & Categories at $500, $400, $300, $200, $100 & 6th thru 10th @ $50 each. 45 (the average for the 8 singles so far this year) teams competing

2) $400 entry fee. Two day contest for $5,000 each day, GC @ $500, RGC @ $300 & Categories @ $300, $200, $150, $100 & 5th thru 10th @ $50 each. 22 (the average of Brentwood & Phoenix club) teams competing each day.

My clear choice would be # 1. 1/2 the costs and time for the same benefits.

[Sylvie Curry]

 Steve Wilson, on 07 July 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

I agree with Matt. The entry fee is not an issue for 1 or 2 day contests. Granted a two day contest does generate more points for both CBBQA TOY & KCBS, but with so many contests, is there really a need for more point paying opportunity? I think not.
Sylvie and others, which would you rather attend of the two following examples:

Location: Same place for both examples. Date: same weekend.

1) $300 entry fee. One day contest for $10,000 prize pool with GC @ $2000, RGC @ $1000 & Categories at $500, $400, $300, $200, $100 & 6th thru 10th @ $50 each. 45 (the average for the 8 singles so far this year) teams competing

2) $400 entry fee. Two day contest for $5,000 each day, GC @ $500, RGC @ $300 & Categories @ $300, $200, $150, $100 & 5th thru 10th @ $50 each. 22 (the average of Brentwood & Phoenix club) teams competing each day.

My clear choice would be # 1. 1/2 the costs and time for the same benefits.

Per your stated example, yes, choice #1 would be preferable when considering cost and prize money. When you look at qualifying for a JD bung or AR invite, then your odds are better with #2.

[Steve Wilson]

OK- would you rather do 2 #1's above @ $600 ($300 each) on seperate weekends (Not back to back) or 1 # 2 above?

Now cost are simular for meat & supplies and $200 more fore entry, but spread out timewise, but two set ups & take downs.

For me, the amount of work in # 2 is still not worth it and the prize $ is significantly better doing 2 contests.

[Sylvie Curry]

I think we all make a choice one contest at a time. The factors which influence what we choose today may be different on another weekend. The question was would I do another back to back-yes. Obviously the prize money for Anaheim didn't impact your or my decision to do the contest in that we were there both days.

With the increase in Southern California contests also comes more choices and weighing each contests incentive is something we all will evaluate based on what is best for our own team.

[matt dalton]

 Sylvie Curry, on 07 July 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

No more than single contest where I didn't do well. I walked away from this one with $400 in prize money.

Your recent Iowa contest only had $5500 in prize money. Did you lose money doing it?

We went in knowing we'd lose money(flew in)so the short answer is yes..was it worth it to walk away with 1st in pork and 8th overall..got out of Ca and cooked against some of the best in BBQ,meet some fantastic people,and added more weapons to our BBQ arsenal.picked up a ton of knowledge almost like we took a class..so we really came home with more than we ever expected to..seems like a win to me!..can I ask what did you gain by doing the double?

Edited by matt dalton, 07 July 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[Henry Silvestre]

I have actually been kicking the idea of just doing 2 doubles... the traditional NYE/NYD one-- which ends and starts the New Year and one other -- Phoenix (or other venue) at the mid-way point.... Making The Little Engine a one day event... I do like the 2 day events, but I also understand how teams get tired of them, so I am working on a nice balance for the year of 2 doubles with all others singles.. I am also thinking of making Pechanga a one day contest, with a rib fest only on Sunday..... A judges class on Thursday and a cooking class on Thursday also -

[matt dalton]

Henry that sounds a lot better.. you know I'd say this stuff in person too..as you can see the majority don't like them..all but one person that does..that says a lot..I'm glad little engine will be only 1 day as Christmas is right after..we will be there!

[Sylvie Curry]

 matt dalton, on 07 July 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

We went in knowing we'd lose money(flew in)so the short answer is yes..was it worth it to walk away with 1st in pork and 8th overall..got out of Ca and cooked against some of the best in BBQ,meet some fantastic people,and added more weapons to our BBQ arsenal.picked up a ton of knowledge almost like we took a class..so we really came home with more than we ever expected to..seems like a win to me!..can I ask what did you gain by doing the double?

So much more than you can even imagine.