37 replies to this topic

[Adam Hollman]

Ya, there is no way I would do it. Maybe in some areas there are only sanctioned events available...not sure. I have heard of teams doing this at the royal to reserve their spot for the next year. Not disagreeing with your point on the points system at all.

[Sylvie Curry]

In theory you could have a backyard event cooking three meats with 15 teams and a blanket state proclamation qualifying for a royal invite and a jack draw if I interpret your loophole theory.

[matt dalton]

Sylvie Curry, on 25 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

In theory you could have a backyard event cooking three meats with 15 teams and a blanket state proclamation qualifying for a royal invite and a jack draw if I interpret your loophole theory.

Very true!..I just hope the powers that be wouldn't let that happen..If it did happen why get any sanctioning at all?..it would be a lot cheaper I'm sure..the point I'm trying to make with all of this is..we don't need any shady sneaky stuff going on just be honest and up front with the teams..I for one wouldn't want to cook a comp with 10 teams just cooking 1 meat..I wanna cook against quality REAL teams not a bunch of half steppers..is it really that hard to cook all meats?..jump in and cook all of them the waters fine and it's a competition after all.

[Rick Renaud]

Matt,
I understand your point, but I will have to play devil's advocate here:
What if I cant afford all the meat?
What if I live too far away to participate in most comps and don't get to practice except at the close one?
What if there are no backyard events anywhere close?
What if my job wont allow me to participate as much or as large as I want?
What if I can't afford the gas to go anywhere else?
Should I just forget about smoking and let the more privileged play?

[matt dalton]

Rick Renaud, on 25 April 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Matt,
I understand your point, but I will have to play devil's advocate here:
What if I cant afford all the meat?
What if I live too far away to participate in most comps and don't get to practice except at the close one?
What if there are no backyard events anywhere close?
What if my job wont allow me to participate as much or as large as I want?
What if I can't afford the gas to go anywhere else?
Should I just forget about smoking and let the more privileged play?

I'd say find a better job,move closer to the center of activity and buy a hybrid..all kidding aside we all know this sport is not cheap and it's even more expensive if you don't do well..so I'm not saying don't compete but if you can't afford all of the above why would you gamble to begin with..it's just the way this game works and some people will be left out just like any other sport that involves winning money..look at it like this..I wanna be a NASCAR driver but I drive a Yugo..I can't afford race gas,don't have a sponsor and my boss won't let me have Sunday off..I guess I won't be racing anytime soon!

[Thom Emery]

The form we will be submitting for the Stagecoach GC asks how many teams cooked all the required categories and
There are boxes for Beef, Pork and Chicken to be checked off
This is our 6th year so we need 25 teams to be a qualifier

The days of chicken teams inflating team count are over

When Comp BBQ first started in California I am told it was common for new teams to cook less categories at a reduced price

[Rick Renaud]

Like I said, I understand.
I have various reasons why I cant compete. It's just that to expand this sport you need new players(NASCAR doesn't want more players).
If there are not more backyards available, where should one start out or learn?

Again, I understand. I am a very competitive person, not for outward appearance, but for self gratification. I wouldn't enter a comp if I couldn't fulfill all requirements.
In this day and economy, there are a lot of people that have to make choices as to what they can do. If they are not able to do their "Chicken and Ribs", then they will just go away.
If CBBQA is all about only the privileged playing, then it will have a problem expanding.

[matt dalton]

Honestly I think there are more opportunities than ever for someone just starting out..Ric's backyard,backyard on the lake,smoke on the mountain are a few up your way down here we have Meat Inc and Rooftop doing the So Cal meat up..these are just a few I know of..I'm all about growing the sport trust me I think we all want that..why I started this thread is because there is a loophole that can be easily exploited and it needs to be fixed.

[harry stewart]

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Point well taken Adam..but if you just wanted to try your hand at chicken or ribs why not just do a backyarder?..isn't the point of doing a comp is to try and win?..I know it is for both of us without doubt..doing 1 or 2 meats you'd be just shooting yourself in the foot before you start..as for a loophole..hypothetically speaking here say I have 10 teams show up for my new event I call 5 buddies down "hey guys just cook some chicken I'll let you in free"now I've got enough teams to be a qualifier the winner goes in the draw..low and behold the winner is going to the Jack now..could happen under these current rules and that's just not fair at all IMO of course.

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Point well taken Adam..but if you just wanted to try your hand at chicken or ribs why not just do a backyarder?..isn't the point of doing a comp is to try and win?..I know it is for both of us without doubt..doing 1 or 2 meats you'd be just shooting yourself in the foot before you start..as for a loophole..hypothetically speaking here say I have 10 teams show up for my new event I call 5 buddies down "hey guys just cook some chicken I'll let you in free"now I've got enough teams to be a qualifier the winner goes in the draw..low and behold the winner is going to the Jack now..could happen under these current rules and that's just not fair at all IMO of course.

When a team fails to turn in on time or god forbid fail to turn two meats, should they be treated as 2 meat cookers? You would get points for the meats you turned in, simple. What you are suggesting Matt is called "collusion" ... a secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose. I know many Promoters and collusion isn't on their radar, PC sales are!

[Rick Renaud]

A lot of good points!
I would hope no one deceitfully uses this "loophole" as you call it, just to raise the stakes or reward.

[matt dalton]

Harry I wasn't suggesting collusion..it's a lot more simple than that..there is a loophole or gap in the rules that can affect the outcome of points and qualifications of a contest..speaking hypothetically again here..I have a first year event but only have five teams signed up..I need 15 so I call up ten friends and say come cook chicken to make this a qualifier..then the winner is now in the draw..does this seem right to you?..it doesn't seem right at all to me..could this actually happen?..it sure can under the current rules and that's what I'm trying to point out..what if there were ten promoters that did the same thing?

[harry stewart]

Let us Know what KCBS says to your e mail and concerns its should be enlightening to us all. i understand hypothesis, but I tend to be optimistic about the KCBS and promoters.

Edited by harry stewart, 25 April 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[Thom Emery]

All three meats have to be cooked by 15 or 25 teams for a event to be a qualifier

[matt dalton]

Ok here is what I received from a KCBS board member..hope this clears things up and I'll just let them handle the rest.


In this case there are two different issues.  The first is that KCBS does not require a team to cook all four meats.  I would hate to see someone that wasn't ready to attempt all four become discouraged about competing.

The other issue, is the situation that you described.  In order to reach 15, 25, or 50 teams to become a qualifier there have been sham teams and it's not limited to California.  The current rules address this in a way.  For a contest to be a qualifier the required number of teams have to turn in ALL required meats.  In the event a team is late getting a box in they are given a one, the box is accepted, but not judged.  Failure to turn a box in at all receives a zero.  There are also existing rules to prevent competing teams from turning in their excess meat for some phantom team.  If you become aware of anything illegal occurring, please contact your contest Reps. and let me know as well.  If they fail to do anything about it, please let me know that as well. 


So there it is..I see what you all are saying and apologize for causing a stir..in the end it's about fairness for all..thanks.

[Rick Renaud]

Matt,
No apology to me needed!
My points were just a megaphone for the new/unlearned person trying to pick up skills.
Your points were valid and it was great to hammer them out from all sides.

[Adam Hollman]

It is always good to ask questions and make sure there are no obvious loopholes. KCBS has been around for a long time, so I expect they have most of this vetted out by now.

At the end of the day we have to put trust in our fellow competitors, organizers, reps etc. There will always be ways to break the rules. For example you could show a cooler of unseasoned meat at meat inspection and then pull out a second cooler with pre-injected/seasoned meat that was hiding somewhere and use that to cook with. I don't think any of the competitors I know or have met would do such a thing and I know that for myself and you Matt, that we would never want to win by doing something outside of the rules intentionally. How could you look at that trophy knowing you had to cheat to win it? I take comfort in knowing that most, if not all, BBQ competitors feel the same way. When we win, we want to know the pride that goes behind it is uncompromised.

Any time money becomes involved, folks try and find ways to get a competitive advantage, so it is good to be diligent about the rules and making sure everyone is playing by them. It sounds like in this case there are enough guardrails to keep everyone on track.

[George Mullins]

Speaking solely for myself, and not for KCBS or the board...

I'm the member of the board that Matt contacted. We do not have a rule that prevents a team from cooking less than the for categories, and I don't believe that w should personally. I don't want to see us discourage somebody that has faith in their "ribs" that wants to get involved.

As far as the qualifier status is concerned...those standards are set by the invitational events. There are meats that are required to be cooked, a certain number of teams, etc...

As Matt explained, quoting my email to him, KCBS has addressed some of those issues. A late entry is scored, but not judged. The purpose to not penalize a team that wins a legitimate contest and genuinely attempts to turn in all four meats. A team that just turns in chicken, for example, will receive a zero in every other category and will not meet the qualifying standards for the invitationals that many teams strive for.

As teams, it's up to you to report any attempts to get around those rules to your contest Reps., or report them to KCBS. Based on my knowledge of the Reps you have I've got little concern. If you disagree, let me know! As a cook I can tell you that I don't agree with every rule that we currently have but I will follow them. I expect them to be followed and if I learn that they are not, I will persue corrective action.

Sylvie brought up another point about backyard contests meeting the standards required by the larger invitationals, and was correct in theory. The issue there is that they are inviationals and that recognition and acceptance are required from those entities. The system isn't perfect and it's evolving as BBQ grows.

I wish I could read this forum daily, but I actually have bills to pay and I don't have the time to read every forum on a daily basis. If you have questions, concerns, or suggestions please feel free to contact me at gmullin at kcbs dot us.

[matt dalton]

At the end of the day we have to put trust in our fellow competitors, organizers, reps etc. There will always be ways to break the rules. For example you could show a cooler of unseasoned meat at meat inspection and then pull out a second cooler with pre-injected/seasoned meat that was hiding somewhere and use that to cook with. I don't think any of the competitors I know or have met would do such a thing and I know that for myself and you Matt, that we would never want to win by doing something outside of the rules intentionally. How could you look at that trophy knowing you had to cheat to win it? I take comfort in knowing that most, if not all, BBQ competitors feel the same way. When we win, we want to know the pride that goes behind it is uncompromised.


Adam this is exactly how I feel..couldn't have been said better..that's why I get a little crazy with the trophy talk..knowing you won that thing fair and square.

Edited by matt dalton, 26 April 2012 - 07:24 PM.