37 replies to this topic

[matt dalton]

I'm just wondering if a team could just cook chicken or ribs and still be included in the overall team count for a contest?..is it even legal?..2 years ago in Santa Maria they had a few teams do just chicken to get 25 but when it came down to it they didn't count those teams..this was an IBCA comp but I'm just wondering how it works for KCBS?..it seems really unfair to teams that work hard to cook all meats then to have false numbers because a few can't or don't want to cook all categories..Kelly?

Edited by matt dalton, 25 April 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Andrew Soto]

I believe they have to turn something in for each catagory to get the minimum score for a turn-in for it to count.

[matt dalton]

Here's the problem let's say you have 48 teams you get 2 teams to just cook 1 category then it's now a 50 team comp making it a 300 pointer instead of a 250..that's what I mean by false numbers..I could see this being a real problem if it was allowed.

[Steve Wilson]

I looked at the rules, looks like a category not turned in scores no points. Something turned in but having varied from the rules is scored a 1 in all 3 judging areas. It does not specifically address the overall, but I assume it counts as scored which would make their overall score significantly lower. Judging our first contest at stagecoach this weekend. Nervous and excited. Good luck all.

[Dale Ginos]

It's my understanding that something must be turned in for each category. What that "something" is is cooks choice. If it is the wrong meat it is scored as a 1 across the board. Much the same as if the wrong garnish is used. We learn from the IRS that you can "rule" people to death, but someone will always find a loop hole. At some point we all have to govern ourselves.

[Jerry Aguilar]

I think in KCBS even if all teams enter all 4 categories, the difference in points in a 48 team vs. a 50 team contest would be 298 vs. 300 for GC, am I wrong?

[matt dalton]

Jerry I'm pretty sure if u GC a 48 team comp you get 250 points..anything above 50 teams it becomes a bonus point event and GC gets 300...maybe Kelly can confirm this?

[K & K MacIntosh]

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

I'm just wondering if a team could just cook chicken or ribs and still be included in the overall team count for a contest?..is it even legal?..2 years ago in Santa Maria they had a few teams do just chicken to get 25 but when it came down to it they didn't count those teams..this was an IBCA comp but I'm just wondering how it works for KCBS?..it seems really unfair to teams that work hard to cook all meats then to have false numbers because a few can't or don't want to cook all categories..Kelly?

For KCBS ToY purposes, the overall team count is used to calculate the ToY points, not the number of teams that turn in all four categories. A team turning in only one category will count towards the overall total.

[matt dalton]

K & K MacIntosh, on 25 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

For KCBS ToY purposes, the overall team count is used to calculate the ToY points, not the number of teams that turn in all four categories. A team turning in only one category will count towards the overall total.

Wow!..I know you don't make up the rules you just follow them..but this seems like a big loop hole to me that can be exploited by shady people..it just seems to me that stuff like this would diminish the integrity of the contest..not only that it could cost someone serious points either way.

[K & K MacIntosh]

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Jerry I'm pretty sure if u GC a 48 team comp you get 250 points..anything above 50 teams it becomes a bonus point event and GC gets 300...maybe Kelly can confirm this?

Every team at a contest will receive points, even the last place team. Additionally, every team participating in a contest will be awarded bonus points based on the number of teams at an event, up to a maximum of 50. There are no double and triple points, only the bonus points based on the number teams competing at each event. While teams will still be rewarded for doing well in large contests, this system helps to bridge the gap between the smaller and larger events, rewarding teams for their consistency on the competition circuit regardless of event size.
The following is a breakdown of the points awarded at each event. Take for example the third place overall finisher at a 47-team event. The team will receive 200 points plus 47 bonus points based on the number of teams competing, for a total of 247.

1st 250
2nd 225
3rd 200
4th 175
5th 150
6th 140
7th 130
8th 120
9th 110
10th 100
11th 95
12th 90
13th 85
14th
15th 75
16th 70
17th 65
18th 60
19th 55
20th 50
21st 45
22nd 40
23rd 35
24th 30
25th and down 25

Edited by K & K MacIntosh, 25 April 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[K & K MacIntosh]

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Wow!..I know you don't make up the rules you just follow them..but this seems like a big loop hole to me that can be exploited by shady people..it just seems to me that stuff like this would diminish the integrity of the contest..not only that it could cost someone serious points either way.

Yes, let's not shoot the messenger. lol

Look at the chart I posted on how the point are calculated (sorry about the crappy formatting). A few chicken only teams wont have too large an impact unless I am missing something. The ToY calculation program was written by the developer to look at the overall total number of teams. It's a (mostly) automated process.

[matt dalton]

Kelly I have nothing but respect for you..thanks for clearing things up for us..so basically if a promoter wanted to inflate numbers it could be done by adding a few rib or chicken teams..it just seems shady and it takes away from the true teams that cook all 4 meats..IMO those teams should stick to the backyard events..if you can't cook all meats you don't belong in a pro level KCBS event..now this just makes me question some past events and if those events weren't true team count it disappoints me to see that happen.

[Benny Adauto]

As Jerry stated, the point total for a GC is only 2 points different between a 48 and 50 team contest. That goes for all the other finishers as well.

Where I see an advantage of having these teams count is to reach the qualifier numbers for the invitationals. For example, a contest without a Gov's Proclamation can get to 50 teams by using just chicken turn-ins. Same for those needing 15 or 25 teams with the proclamations. I was prepard to be team 25 (not team 24 or 26) at Golden Acorn last year and just do 4 boxes of chicken. Turned out they needed many more teams than just me.

Is it fair, I don't know.

[matt dalton]

It's not fair to the teams that work their a$$ off to cook all 4 then to have some people just cooking one meat..it makes a joke of the whole process and it takes away the integrity of the event..IMO

[K & K MacIntosh]

Benny Adauto, on 25 April 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

As Jerry stated, the point total for a GC is only 2 points different between a 48 and 50 team contest. That goes for all the other finishers as well.

Where I see an advantage of having these teams count is to reach the qualifier numbers for the invitationals. For example, a contest without a Gov's Proclamation can get to 50 teams by using just chicken turn-ins. Same for those needing 15 or 25 teams with the proclamations. I was prepard to be team 25 (not team 24 or 26) at Golden Acorn last year and just do 4 boxes of chicken. Turned out they needed many more teams than just me.

Is it fair, I don't know.

When KCBS submitted contest info to the Royal and Jack they used the total overall number of teams. Since the Royal has taken over the task of compiling contest info I don't know if they will be looking at the same criteria to determine team counts. KCBS will continue to provide the Jack with info for another year but after that it's anybody's guess how they will determine numbers.

[K & K MacIntosh]

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Kelly I have nothing but respect for you..thanks for clearing things up for us..so basically if a promoter wanted to inflate numbers it could be done by adding a few rib or chicken teams..it just seems shady and it takes away from the true teams that cook all 4 meats..IMO those teams should stick to the backyard events..if you can't cook all meats you don't belong in a pro level KCBS event..now this just makes me question some past events and if those events weren't true team count it disappoints me to see that happen.

Thanks Matt. If you have a question on a KCBS event you can look up the results at kcbs.us and compare the total overall number with the number of teams in each category. It's fairly rare but occasionally a team will only want to do chicken and ribs to "get their feet wet", not to inflate the team count. Since there are more backyard opportunities we don't see this too often any more.

[K & K MacIntosh]

matt dalton, on 25 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

It's not fair to the teams that work their a$$ off to cook all 4 then to have some people just cooking one meat..it makes a joke of the whole process and it takes away the integrity of the event..IMO

I totally understand where you are coming from but on the other side of the coin, a GC at a 24 team contest might not have an issue with one chicken team being added. Now, if you had 10 chicken teams, that would be another story.

[matt dalton]

K & K MacIntosh, on 25 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

I totally understand where you are coming from but on the other side of the coin, a GC at a 24 team contest might not have an issue with one chicken team being added. Now, if you had 10 chicken teams, that would be another story.

I agree 100% with this..If your only 1 team away I'd say go for it but anymore than that would be unfair to the teams that put time and effort into doing real contests..I just emailed KCBS so hopefully they can close the loophole before anyone else slips through.

[Adam Hollman]

As far as I know, KCBS has never required teams to cook all 4 meats. You can't qualify for GC or RGC without turning in all 4, but if you want to just try your hand at chicken and/or ribs, then that has always been ok. The "loophole", if any, would be in the points system. Talking to them direct seems like a good idea.

[matt dalton]

Adam Hollman, on 25 April 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

As far as I know, KCBS has never required teams to cook all 4 meats. You can't qualify for GC or RGC without turning in all 4, but if you want to just try your hand at chicken and/or ribs, then that has always been ok. The "loophole", if any, would be in the points system. Talking to them direct seems like a good idea.

Point well taken Adam..but if you just wanted to try your hand at chicken or ribs why not just do a backyarder?..isn't the point of doing a comp is to try and win?..I know it is for both of us without doubt..doing 1 or 2 meats you'd be just shooting yourself in the foot before you start..as for a loophole..hypothetically speaking here say I have 10 teams show up for my new event I call 5 buddies down "hey guys just cook some chicken I'll let you in free"now I've got enough teams to be a qualifier the winner goes in the draw..low and behold the winner is going to the Jack now..could happen under these current rules and that's just not fair at all IMO of course.