24 replies to this topic

[Bentley Meredith]

I wonder if KCBS will ever get to the point where I will know the score and whether it was a CBJ or a non-CBJ score?

We got a X X X X X X (scores to follow) on our ribs for apperance, would love to know if any of the X's were from CBJ's.

I would have given my ribs a 7 after looking at the pictures when I got home.





I think you all know you are not going to hurt my feelings...What would you give them? Only look for 10 seconds?

[Lacey Fisher]

I would say 7. They look delicious, but the sizes of the individual ribs seem different and the cuts aren't very straight- but some of this may be due to the angle of the picture.

Out of curiosity, were all the bones off the same rack?

[Dale Ginos]

Tammy gives you an 8, but heck what does she know? LOL I think they probably have room for improvement, Straighter cuts, more uniformed, I agree with the 7.

[Kristin Meredith]

Lacey Fisher, on Sep 24 2008, 08:17 PM, said:

I would say 7. They look delicious, but the sizes of the individual ribs seem different and the cuts aren't very straight- but some of this may be due to the angle of the picture.

Out of curiosity, were all the bones off the same rack?

My recall is that these six came from two different racks.

Edited by Kristin Meredith, 24 September 2008 - 07:45 PM.

[Jason Fisher]

7

[Bentley Meredith]

Lacey Fisher, on Sep 24 2008, 08:17 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, were all the bones off the same rack?

I think they are form the same rack, but not sure.

[Dave Rusko]

Bent,

I think 8 ribs instead of 6 looking the way they do would have given you a solid 8 and possibly a 9 for presentation. They are close to uniform in size and stand out brilliantly. The finish is good and they have that "Clovis" shine to them that every judge seems to look for first when viewing. The only thing I see in this presentation that looks off is the ratio of ribs to garnish seems to favor the garnish side just a bit.

Look WAY better then the ones I saw up in Boulder in 2006!!

[John Chips]

Dave, bentley no longer posts here. He can be found at the brethern

NUTZ

[Larry Schroeder]

Bently, honestly I think that a 7 is a generous for an appearance score for this box.

The because this is a KCBS turn-in, the appearance score is by the garnish. I would score this down since the garnish is not uniform and over flowing the box. The unacceptable placement of the garnish over shadows the Ribs.....

In a IBCA contest the garnish does not affect you.

As for these ribs, they look good. They are not over sauced and they have good color and shine. Howeve they are not cut straight. They are not unifrom in size. For that reason I would score them down.

IMO, I don't think that this box was prepared with deliberate intention to obtain high scores for appearance.

I would give it a 5.

Larry Schroeder, CBJ
Rib Tickler BBQ, LLC

[Benny Adauto]

Bentley,

I am one judge who follows the KCBS instructions to the letter. Those instructions tell judges to "judge the meat" for appearance. So for me, garnish not something I consider. Your ribs look good enough to earn an X (at least).

I don't usually respond to scoring questions but feel it is important for judges to follow the KCBS isntructions each of us agreed to abide by.

Benny

Edited by Benny Adauto, 14 January 2009 - 07:04 AM.

[Bill Bain]

Are there any other CBJ's that don't consider garnish when they judge the appearance of the turn-in?

[Ben Lobenstein]

Billl Bain, on Jan 14 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Are there any other CBJ's that don't consider garnish when they judge the appearance of the turn-in?

Raises hand.

But now I see why the teams complain that score are all over the place

[Kristin Meredith]

Larry Schroeder, on Jan 13 2009, 11:43 PM, said:

Bently, honestly I think that a 7 is a generous for an appearance score for this box.

The because this is a KCBS turn-in, the appearance score is by the garnish. I would score this down since the garnish is not uniform and over flowing the box. The unacceptable placement of the garnish over shadows the Ribs.....

In a IBCA contest the garnish does not affect you.

As for these ribs, they look good. They are not over sauced and they have good color and shine. Howeve they are not cut straight. They are not unifrom in size. For that reason I would score them down.

IMO, I don't think that this box was prepared with deliberate intention to obtain high scores for appearance.

I would give it a 5.

Larry Schroeder, CBJ
Rib Tickler BBQ, LLC

Since I prepared the box with the ribs Bent gave me, I can represent that I did prepare it with the deliberate intention of obtaining a high score.

The cuts were very uneven and I was trying to minimize that with the garnish, not very successfully from my perspective. On the other hand, when I was trained as a KCBS CBJ (by Ed Roith at the American Royal), it was pounded in to us that judges are to judge the meat and not the garnish. So I am always interested to read comments which talk about how messy or straight or wonderful or poor the garnish looks.

For appearance, we received 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 7.

Bill, I am also raising my hand -- I don't consider garnish when I judge.

p.s. -- You can also find Bentley at Dave Vindiola's new site www.mybitpit.com

[Bill Bain]

Good discussion about garnish that is long overdue. From the comments so far what I am seeing is protein placed on wilted, torn lettuce that is jammed in the box is scored the same as the identical protein placed on a bed of fresh neatly arranged lettuce? You either judge the entire turn-in, meat and garnish together or you only judge the meat and the garnish is fluff. If you say the meat looks better on a nice bed of lettuce compared to the meat on wilted torn lettuce then you are judging the garnish also as it complements the presentation of the meat. If garnish is not considered then why have it and why do so many teams work so hard to make the box look great?

[Larry Schroeder]

Kristin Meredith, on Jan 14 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

Since I prepared the box with the ribs Bent gave me, I can represent that I did prepare it with the deliberate intention of obtaining a high score.

The cuts were very uneven and I was trying to minimize that with the garnish, not very successfully from my perspective. On the other hand, when I was trained as a KCBS CBJ (by Ed Roith at the American Royal), it was pounded in to us that judges are to judge the meat and not the garnish. So I am always interested to read comments which talk about how messy or straight or wonderful or poor the garnish looks.

For appearance, we received 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 7.

Bill, I am also raising my hand -- I don't consider garnish when I judge.

p.s. -- You can also find Bentley at Dave Vindiola's new site www.mybitpit.com

I sincerely apologize for being so critical. After I reviewed my own post, I realized my words were very harsh and more importantly revealed that I have much to learn on this subject. So now everyone knows I am an idiot!

I don't post very much....but I wanted to weigh in here as often times after a contest I scratch my head as to why my scores are not higher than they are.

Clearly I understand why there is a controversy regarding garnish. I also have more appreciation for ICBA not having any garnish allowing the meat to stand on its own.

That being said..... in the 2 years I have been doing this and the great deal of money invested in Competition Classes...... great emphasis is put on choosing quality meat. In the case of ribs, making sure that the bones are straight and uniform to give nice cuts on presentation.

There is also great emphasis on the use of garnish. In particular the way it fits in the box and it should not over shadow the meat.

I have been CBJ over a year and half and have only recently just judged my first competition. The judges at my table were all veteran judges some with 10+ years. They all shared with me that they don't like garnish.....if it is in the box....it is included in the overall appearance score. One judge told me that he scores down if there is parsley in the box.... I did not think that is fair. There was also one that score lower if Baby Backs are used...... Clearly, this option is dead wron...IMO.

At the end of the day.....based on the weighting factor has marginal bearing on the overall score but it can and probably makes the difference in winning and losing.

[Larry Schroeder]

Billl Bain, on Jan 14 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

Good discussion about garnish that is long overdue. From the comments so far what I am seeing is protein placed on wilted, torn lettuce that is jammed in the box is scored the same as the identical protein placed on a bed of fresh neatly arranged lettuce? You either judge the entire turn-in, meat and garnish together or you only judge the meat and the garnish is fluff. If you say the meat looks better on a nice bed of lettuce compared to the meat on wilted torn lettuce then you are judging the garnish also as it complements the presentation of the meat. If garnish is not considered then why have it and why do so many teams work so hard to make the box look great?

Bill - I appreciate your thoughts..... as we are one of those teams that does take impeccable care in the placement of the garnish...... as a team we share much frustration on the appearance score.....particularly when we see other turn-in boxes. I agree with no garnish!

What is your opinion about the uniformity of the cuts and sizes of the ribs..... and type of the ribs. Competing at this level....do these factors come into play?

[Bill Bain]

First we have to agree that there will always be idiot judges that need to be weeded out. Sounds like you met a few that need to have a talk with the KCBS rep. Any judge that witnesses a discussion about scoring bb's lower or scoring parsley lower, etc. needs to bring that to the attention to the rep so they can be counseled and/or dismissed from further judging.

Top rib scores are easier to get when all the ribs are uniform in size, cut cleanly, shingled or spaced to show the side and top of the ribs instead of stacked together tightly so you only see the top of the ribs, nice even glaze and most importantly, when you look at them, if you can't wait to take a bite they score really high.

[Kristin Meredith]

Larry,

I did not think you were being too harsh or critical, just honest. It was a very frustrating box for me to put together because, for the first time in a long time, the ribs were really uneven, I was having a terrible time getting them in the box, I had tried to place them in about three or four different configuartions and nothing was working, etc. Bentley was not happy with the parsley, but I was trying to "make it work". Probably should not have put any garnish at all. But I did want you to know I was sincerely trying with the box, eventhough I think I failed!

I too think there is a great emphasis on garnish and I am not sure why. The KCBS rules specifically say that a team does not have to use garnish. A few years ago, I read about a KCBS contest where several teams pulled together and decided they would not use garnish at a contest (nice to have others so one does not stick out) and both the CG and the RCG did not use garnish. So, obviously, if you have judges who understand that they should focus on the meat, you can probably go without garnish. But, as I have said many times before, judging is all over the place and I do not see any effort by KCBS to have "re-fresher" courses for judges where they refine certain important judging concepts and criteria and work to erradicate some of the biases (no parsley or baby backs, etc) which are still popping up.

p.s. -- Sorry to Dave Vindiola got your site wrong www.mybbqpit.com

[David Towne]

I vote that when the CBBQA starts sanctioning contests, we banish the garnish!

[Bram Britcher]

USGA has a "Walking Members Program" where members commit to walking the golf course vs. using carts. They're recognized with a special bag tag.

Maybe CBBQA needs a "Save the Vegetables Program" where teams commit to going without garnish. ??