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2008 ToY Rules


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#21 Thom Emery

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 03:33 PM

IBCA Tie Breakers are Brisket then Ribs

#22 Darry Smith

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 03:35 PM

Thom...any tie breaking system in place for IBCA?

#23 Kristin Meredith

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 03:36 PM

View PostThom Emery, on Apr 20 2008, 04:03 PM, said:

Overall is based on the top half reveal
OK, so how is that calculated? Is it done as Bill suggested?

#24 Thom Emery

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 03:39 PM

Our RC would be correct I do believe

#25 Bentley Meredith

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 04:36 PM

So maybe before the next IBCA event can we have this worked out?

A simple question for you all that seem to be in the know. I know we changed the rules for 2008 and ToY, but wheather this was an IBCA or a KCBS (since this is our only option in the CBBQA), a contest with 24 teams, the winner of a meat catagory is only going to get 12 points? Not 24.

#26 Bentley Meredith

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 04:39 PM

View PostThom Emery, on Apr 20 2008, 04:39 PM, said:

Our RC would be correct I do believe


So basically no one knew the rules for determining this going into this contest.

#27 Thom Emery

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 06:21 PM

I knew the rules and everyone who was involved in the
drafting and voting of the 2008 ToY did also
In all of the ToY 2008 events
the top half are the only teams that score points

#28 Bentley Meredith

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:08 PM

View PostThom Emery, on Apr 20 2008, 07:21 PM, said:

I knew the rules and everyone who was involved in the
drafting and voting of the 2008 ToY did also
In all of the ToY 2008 events
the top half are the only teams that score points


Rules was a bad choice of word.

Can you state right now how the top 12 teams are determined? If not do you know who can?

I want to make it as simple and clear a question as I can!

Edited by Bentley Meredith, 20 April 2008 - 07:09 PM.


#29 gary notley

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:11 PM

I knew the rules for the most part, and what I didnt understand I asked Kelly about. He explained them quite well to me. (but this is my 2nd IBCA contest and I have asked a bunch of questions since Palm Desert)

For tie breakers its brisket, and then ribs.

I believe in your case Burnt by the Best will get 12 points for your 1st in Brisket, Smell my Butts would get 11, Cutting edge would get 10 etc etc, then you add the scores for your other meats (that placed in the to 12 in this event) add all the points and you get your top 12 finish. If 11 other teams score higher than 12 points (Burnt by the Bests points score for brisket) you would not get TOY points, since you are not in the top 12, BUT you would get 12 points in brisket category.

If I am wrong I apologize, but I believe Bill and I are correct on the scoring.


View PostBentley Meredith, on Apr 20 2008, 04:39 PM, said:

So basically no one knew the rules for determining this going into this contest.

Edited by gary notley, 20 April 2008 - 07:22 PM.


#30 Thom Emery

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:28 PM

Let me try to explain this clearly
12 (half the field) were revealed in each category
Those points were used to compute a
overall score for the event
Tie breakers are Brisket then Ribs Then Chicken
So ToY points are awarded by Category and Overall
based on the number of all the teams present

Ten in category will always be revealed
more if the field is larger

#31 Thom Emery

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:32 PM

View PostBentley Meredith, on Apr 20 2008, 05:39 PM, said:

So basically no one knew the rules for determining this going into this contest.

It seems most if not almost all did
We had two cooks meetings
Don't be bashful ask questions

#32 Hershel Brannen

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 07:35 PM

View PostBram Britcher, on Apr 20 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

Example: 20 team field. 3rd place gets 18 points. 4 teams are tied for 3rd. All 4 teams will be awarded 18 points. With 4 teams at 4th place, the next team to receive points would be considered 7th place.

Bram, I care not about how the points are awarded as long as it is consistent, but i find your statement above somewhat confusing. Let's use your example above. First place receives 20 points, second place 19 points, third place 18 points, etc. That means that there should be a total of 210 points available for this meat catagory. If I understand you correctly based on the statement above, then if you had a 20 way tie for first place, every team would be awarded 20 points for a total of 400 available for this meat catagory - is that how I understand it? How can you "add" points that are not available. In this scenario, you have now "weighted" this contest - or any contest where there are ties - as more valuable.

In other such scenarios where points or prizes are awarded, I always understood that for ties, you added the available points (or money) between the number of tied places, and divided the total by the number of places. As I see it in your example above, places 3, 4, 5, and 6 would have a total number of 66 points available (18 + 17 + 16 +15), split 4 ways. Each contestant would receive 16.5 points rounded up to 17.

If you awarded money this way someone would have to come up with an additional $190.

#33 Bram Britcher

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 08:22 PM

View PostHershel Brannen, on Apr 20 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

Bram, I care not about how the points are awarded as long as it is consistent, but i find your statement above somewhat confusing. Let's use your example above. First place receives 20 points, second place 19 points, third place 18 points, etc. That means that there should be a total of 210 points available for this meat catagory. If I understand you correctly based on the statement above, then if you had a 20 way tie for first place, every team would be awarded 20 points for a total of 400 available for this meat catagory - is that how I understand it? How can you "add" points that are not available. In this scenario, you have now "weighted" this contest - or any contest where there are ties - as more valuable.

In other such scenarios where points or prizes are awarded, I always understood that for ties, you added the available points (or money) between the number of tied places, and divided the total by the number of places. As I see it in your example above, places 3, 4, 5, and 6 would have a total number of 66 points available (18 + 17 + 16 +15), split 4 ways. Each contestant would receive 16.5 points rounded up to 17.

If you awarded money this way someone would have to come up with an additional $190.
Hello Hershel,
I try to apply the rules exactly as written. " ...First place is awarded points equaling the total number of active contestants; second place earns one fewer point, and so on down through the top half finishers..." A finite point pool or splitting of points by tied teams are not mentioned in our rules.

Does this unfairly weight a contest? Not sure. I have logged the concern as you've described it so we don't forget it when '09 rules discussion starts.

Bram

#34 Vincent Carrocci

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 10:02 PM

[symantic blathering]

Something that I think can get confusing in discussions of where one "placed" in a contest is the use of the word "tied". Technically, you cannot "tie" with someone for a place because there are tie-breakers for Overall and Category placings. You may have had the same total score as another team for a Category or Overall but you finished either ahead of them or behind them after the application of the tie-breakers.

Using this logic on Hershel's example, there could not be a 20 or even 2 team "tie" for 1st Place.

[/symantic blatherin]

#35 Thom Emery

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 04:49 AM

no

#36 Kristin Meredith

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 06:32 AM

View PostVincent Carrocci, on Apr 20 2008, 11:02 PM, said:

[symantic blathering]

Something that I think can get confusing in discussions of where one "placed" in a contest is the use of the word "tied". Technically, you cannot "tie" with someone for a place because there are tie-breakers for Overall and Category placings. You may have had the same total score as another team for a Category or Overall but you finished either ahead of them or behind them after the application of the tie-breakers.

Using this logic on Hershel's example, there could not be a 20 or even 2 team "tie" for 1st Place.

[/symantic blatherin]

Vince,

Are you by any chance a coverage attorney? If not, I can assure you that you could have a brillant future in coverage law, especially with your effective use of symantic blathering -- it takes years for most lawyers to master that skill!! :D

#37 Bill Keyes

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 07:46 AM

Confusing, I think two things are being discussed. IBCA overall scoring and TOY scoring.
My original senerio was for how the IBCA scoring is for the team Overall placement at a contest. But the TOY points would be from 24 points down due to how many teams were entered in the contest.
I believe the points awarded are based on the TOTAL number of teams, not just the top half.
Example of TOY points, using our team's scoring at Wishland.
24 teams participated.
Individual Category TOY
First (Pork) would be 24 points
Third (Brisket) would be 22 points
Seventh (Ribs) would be 18 points

Overall TOY
2nd place would be 23 points

If I am interputing the rules incorrectly, please jump in.

Now regarding Herschel's post, I think he is talking about TOY points, and I think we had this conversation last year. This is for TOY points, not placement in a contest. Sanctioning bodies have their own tiebreaker systems in place for contest placing. For TOY points, we can have a two, three, or 4 way tie, or more. Money is not involved, just a trophey and recognition. I believe we had co-Team of the year recently, with Brent and Kim, and Jay and Monica. Should we have used a tie-breaker to just give out the one award, even though they both earned the same points all year? This could be debated for a long time. Maybe we should have a one on one battle, winner-take-all! :lol: Personally, I like the system how it is. But I am sure not everyone will be happy. :no:

#38 Hershel Brannen

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:53 AM

View PostBill Keyes, on Apr 21 2008, 08:46 AM, said:

Now regarding Herschel's post, I think he is talking about TOY points, and I think we had this conversation last year. This is for TOY points, not placement in a contest.

Bram / Bill,

I stand corrected. I was indeed confusing individual catagory placement with overall placement. After re-reading the prior posts, I realized the discussion was about overall team results and ToY points, and not individual catagory placement.





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