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Proposed 2007 ToY Rules Public


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#1 Ben Lobenstein

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 12:25 AM

My best flame suit adorned.

Please make all comments/suggestions in this thread. Will will close the public comment on this in ~10 days @ 12:01am Monday 3/19/07

Items marked in yellow are still a work in progress.

Thanks

http://www.westcoastbbqchampionships.com/f...A-TOY_v_0_6.pdf

#2 jay benedict

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 04:11 AM

I can see that zero contests outside of California (with the exception of Boulder City) will be eligible for TOY points. Most California teams don't tread to far from home. To get one California team for every five teams at a contest outside of the state is damn near impossible. It might as well read 'California contests only'.

#3 Thom Emery

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 05:24 AM

Remember this is a work in progress
Our main goals here were to open up the contest to the Top Ten Teams ands create a Rookie of the Year
Plus the Most Improved Team .So CBBQA can recognize the efforts of more BBQ Teams.
The in state required contest numbers and out of state percentages are NOT final at this time
Those two items are what we are asking for you the membership to comment on the most.

#4 jay benedict

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 06:12 AM

I think it all looks great. I love it. Just the out of state thing.....but of course we are an out of state team so naturally we are going to think this way.

#5 Peter Benac

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 06:35 AM

That makes two of us Jay.

If we out of state members are going to be excluded from the full benefits of CBBQA then maybe the board should enact an associate membership level. One where we get full access to the site and can say we are members, but not entitled to any of the other benefits. Cheaper dues and less privileges.

Otherwise full membership is full membership.

Least Jay has the ability to compete in California, but it's just not cost effective at this time for me to.

#6 Bentley Meredith

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 06:38 AM

I guess I am just not as concerned about out of state teams winning the CBBQA ToY as others. If they do, so be it, if they are willing to be a CBBQA member(remember this is rule #1) to me it should make no difference where a person lives.-------"TOY is an annual “points” race under which CBBQA member teams compete for trophies (and bragging rights) in one or more categories."-----I do not think competitions should have caveat's on them. I do not like the fact that an event must have any percentage of CBBQA teams to qualify. If an event qualifies it qualifies. I think the size limit is good, you also use a weighted scoring system so a larger contest counts more towards the overall. I don't think an event should have to include all 4 meats to qualify, but that is just my opinion.

As far as Rookie of the year. If I am going to be commishnier, I need someone to tell me going into this year who the "Rookie" teams are because I have no idea based on the requirements.

#7 Darry Smith

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 06:47 AM

I think the 12 team limit is too low. We should go by the 20 for a first year comp, 25 for an existing comp to qualify. 20 is even low compared to what kind of attendance we are seeing presently.
I have no problem with the "cheaper" sanctioning bodies existing in an effort to let competitors grow into the higher ranks of competitions, but to have a team dominate in a "backyard" division series in a year they still shouldn't be shouldn't considered for ToY honors.

There's my 2¢

#8 Ben Lobenstein

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 06:51 AM

Well at least we are hitting on the big issues up front. ;)

What it the % was 5 ? Then at a contest with 12 teams would need only 1 and with 50 teams would need 3 CBBQA member teams?

#9 jay benedict

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 06:54 AM

I do agree with the 3 in-state contest minimum to be eligible for TOY points. This would prevent Lottabull (just for an example only) from sending in his membership money and winning the TOY without competing in California. I think the 3 in-state minimum should be the only requirement. What is a minimum of 3 CBBQA teams in a 50 team contest really saying...what are you trying achieve with that rule?

#10 Ben Lobenstein

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:09 AM

Jay the real issue became -

1. Allow all contests anywhere to count for ToY points, this would then give a much higher benefit to teams who can afford (not just $, but time as well) to travel around and get points from all over
2. CA contests only
3. Something in between, if anything, that would be a good compromise

Smitty,

Using that logic then only 5 CA contests would have qualified in 2006 (Autry, Modesto, Fairfield, Clovis, Viejas).

#11 Bentley Meredith

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:16 AM

Ben,

What other contest in CA were used? Those were the only ones that could have been used. I dont think Silent Valley or Surf n Turf had 12 teams? So I am not sure what the point is. I hope we have come to a point in CA where 25 teams is a bare min. I like the 15/25 rule that the Royal and Jack use( I do not believe that is a KCBS requirement), but that rules out events like Silent Valley and IB. But it seems if we are using only 4 meats events, it is going to rule out IBCA events unless they start adding pork as a catagory. I do not know how you include smaller events. It seems to me the Association's goal is to get more teams active, but that seems to be a problem with the smaller events. Some people feel it gives others an advantage. I just don't see that many small events hanging on, time will tell.

#12 Peter Benac

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:17 AM

Is that number even necessary? There were 29 teams last year in Boulder City and I can tell you there were at least 5 CBBQA member teams there. Four of us were together.

OK I will concede that there should be a minimum number of California Competitions. Until California gets a whole lot more comps three might be too high..

I think the percentage should be on the number of CA Comps competed in and not the number of CBBQA members in the competition. This way as the number of California Competitions grows the number of required competitions grows with it.

Under the current rules even if I should get to the required number of in state competitions any wins I *WILL* accumulate would be nulled out because I would be the only CBBQA member at the competition. Getting 50 teams in a competition out here is not that hard to do.

#13 Darry Smith

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:25 AM

Quote

Smitty,

Using that logic then only 5 CA contests would have qualified in 2006 (Autry, Modesto, Fairfield, Clovis, Viejas).


To be honest, I think our best team would (should) be derived by using these competitions. ToY should be best team that has competed and beaten the top opposition there is out here.

#14 jay benedict

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:28 AM

Quoting:
..... Allow all contests anywhere to count for ToY points, this would then give a much higher benefit to teams who can afford (not just $, but time as well) to travel around and get points from all over.....

Ben,I think then you'll be heading into the 'California residence only' or 'California contests only' area.

That is the thing about KCBS TOY. The top teams do about 30 contests a year. Who can, except for them, compete with that? But that's the way it is.
OK, I will shutup now. Thanks for the oppurtunity to speak.:)

And I agree with Smitty.

#15 Peter Benac

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:52 AM

Posted By Darry Smith on 03/08/2007 10:25 AM

Quote

Smitty,

Using that logic then only 5 CA contests would have qualified in 2006 (Autry, Modesto, Fairfield, Clovis, Viejas).


To be honest, I think our best team would (should) be derived by using these competitions. ToY should be best team that has competed and beaten the top opposition there is out here.




Smitty I will be competing against Dizzy Pig, Mad Max and DrBBQ out here. Don't you think I will be competing against the best teams out here. FYI Chris and Crew were right next to QN4U at the Jack the last two years.

I still think a percentage of the in state comps is a good way to go. If you set that level at say 20% then with the 5 sanctioned comps a team has to compete in at least one. That number could be higher say 30% and round it up. Then you would be required to do 2 of the 5.

Get more comps in CA and you get that number higher :)

I drove 500+ miles to Boulder City from Stockton. If I was to do that here I could pretty much choose from two or three contest EVERY week and not exceed that 500 miles. Doing 30 comps here is rather easy if you have the cash.

#16 Gene Goycochea

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:17 AM

as far as the 3 events in state to qualify a team for team of the year, that was when we only had 5 competitions in California, we were looking at 5 as we now have many more competitions...... it may work out to be 4 competitions, we don't want a team to compete in 1 comp in california then compete in 4 others in florida and be out team of the year, we are trying to protect our members including out out of state members who do support our events and are regular members of our association.

I would like to see out of state competitions count as long as the team has supported the 4 or 5 competitions within the state of California...... that being said, I think we should have a doubling of the points after a contest has 30 teams ( possible in California too) so that we don't have teams winning by doing huge events eliminate triple point events and only award double after that 30 teams... all other events would be without a multiplier.

#17 Kristin Meredith

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 09:53 AM

First, I want to thank Ben for taking on the massive task of rewriting these rules. Ben, we only have the ability to comment on and analyze the document because you did such a comprehensive and thorough job. Thank you for your service to the group.

I will set forth my comments below by tracking the appropriate section of the proposed document:

Sec 2.01 -- "CBBQA member teams"
Sec 3.02 -- "CBBQA members must make up at least 18% of teams competing"

I think that our rules and regulations regarding the TOY award reflect an ambivalence in the organization which we need to address and resolve right up front regarding the residency of the team which ultimately wins the award or residency of the competitions which count towards the TOY award.

In recent Board meetings, I have heard comments about the TOY award that further reinforced this perception (i.e. "We are the CALIFORNIA BBQ Association so shouldn't the California competitions be the most important or shouldn't California teams being winning these awards or shouldn't this award promote California cookers" etc.) I personally don't have any problem with the concept of a CBBQA award that favors those who primarily compete in California competitions or even goes to only California residents. We are the California BBQ Association. But if that is what we want, then we need to unequivocally state that and make that clear and let the chips fall where they may with our out of state members.

If what we want to do is promote California teams for this award, then this means that Sec 2.01 should not say "CBBQA members teams who compete" but rather something like "CBBQA member teams who are residents of California on the day of the competition compete". We have to address and resolve this issue head on because it seems to be driving an influencing these rules and making them somewhat complicated. If what we mean is to promote California competitions and teams, then let's say so and these rules can be simplified quite a lot.

Board, you have to decide this issue. You can either take the temperature of the membership through a poll on the member’s only section of the forum or you can address it yourselves. But if we truly mean that the TOY is open to all CBBQA members then we shouldn't be stacking the deck in favor of California competitions and/or residents. If, on the other hand, the purpose of the TOY is to promote California competitions then why allow any out of state comps to count? Let's simplify the rules and let our out of state members know it up front so they can consider their membership options.

Sec 3.01 -- "One or more of the member cooks must be present at some point during the contest for the member team's finish to be points eligible."

How will this rule be verified and enforced? Do we simply take a team's word on it? If so, why do we have this in here because if a team says they are eligible and submit their scores isn't that a verbal representation that they qualify?

Are we going to allow other teams to "rat" some team out -- i.e. "BBQ Team A really didn't have a CBBQA member cooking with them at 2 am on Saturday morning." I think we need to think about the enforcement methods for some of the sections we are writing and may authorize and whether we will create more problems the more rules we have.


Sec 3.02 -- "CBBQA members must make up at least 18% of teams competing"

How do we verify and enforce this? How does a team which wants to submit points verify this? Are we going to require that a team goes around a competition noting the name and membership status of all competitors? Other than the teams' representation that they are a member do we require the team submitting points to require other proof? Is the CBBQA going to maintain a registry of CBBQA teams and if your team name isn't on it then you aren't a CBBQA team for purposes of this 18% rule? Who is the final word on the 15% and whether it has been met -- the promoter of the event, the team submitting their scores, the TOY Commissioner?

Sec 3.02 -- "Any contest outside of California AND/OR not sanctioned..."

We need to elect whether it is AND or OR because it can't be both. If it is left "AND/OR" it is ambivalent and can be read to not apply to out of state contests because there are plenty of out of state events which meet the criteria of 1-5 of this section and yet may not be endorsed by the CBBQQA.

Sec 4.01 -- "Tri-Tip"

Why are we including Tri-Tip? Most competitions don't have a separate Tri-Tip category. Why not make it "Anything Butt"? [In the interest of full disclosure, this comment is made knowing full well that I would never qualify for a Tri-Tip award but I may have the possibility of qualifying for an Anything Butt award].

Sec 4.02 -- "Only a team's top five finishes (by points) will be added together to give TOY points total"

It seems to me that a team could compete in 3 California competitions and several out of state competitions and have their "top five finishes (by points)" all be from out of state competitions and win the TOY with out of state comps.

Do we want to require that at least three of the competitions used to calculate the TOY award must come from California competitions? It may not be the team "top finishes" but it would place the weight on California comps.

Sec 4.03 -- "Rookie team"

Do all the members of the team need to have never previously cooked? If so, we need to state so. If less than all members then we need to state that. For example if three of the four have never cooked before will we accept that (75% of the members of the team have never cooked, etc?)

Thanks again Ben.

#18 Neil Strawder

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 10:13 AM

I haven't read everyone's comments yet so I apologize if this is redundant.

A Rookie Team by definition is a team that has not previously cooked in any other prior sanctioned BBQ contest under
any other team name. The Rookie Team award will be presented to the Rookie Team that scores the most points (using
the overall category) in any given contest year (using the same point accruals defined above). In the event that a team
begins competition mid year, if they participate in less than 3 ToY contests in their first ToY year they will also be granted
Rookie status for their 2nd (and only 2nd) Toy year as well.


So since Silent Valley wasn't a qualifying contest last year, Four Q would be eligible for Rookie of the Year this year because the only other contests we participated in were Autry and Beachfront. Correct? (Actually Beachfron wouldn't qualify either because there were only 10 teams).

1. Sanctioned by a nationally recognized sanctioning body (KCBS Championship Series, ICBA, MIM or CBBQA)
2. Must be an open non invitational contest
3. Must have no less than 12 teams competing
4. Must cook all 4 standard competition meats (Chicken, Pork Butt, Ribs, Brisket) as part of the contest
5. CBBQA members must make up least 18% of teams competing


ICBA (Actually, it's IBCA) contest only cook 3 meats (brisket, ribs and chicken) so they wouldn't qualify because they don't cook four meats.

#19 Bentley Meredith

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 10:15 AM

Let me ask people if I am reading them right. No matter how many events a team cooks in during the year, only 5 are used for the ToY. Am I understanding people to say that 3 of the 5 must be California events that are used in the points total? Or are people saying that X number of CA events have to be cooked and then any 5 competitions can be used?

I would vote that if a team competes in more than 5 events, 3 of the 5 events used for scoring must be in CA. If this is what everbody has been saying forgive me, you know I am not the sharpest tack in the pack!

#20 Peter Benac

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 10:20 AM

IF you want to exclude members who reside out of state from getting a benefit of the CBBQA then I say once again to the board that there needs to be a third level of membership that is less then the whole.

Why should I be forced to pay full membership for partial benefits. It appears obvious to me that is exactly what this organization wants.

Gene you don't have to worry about someone winning 4 Florida contests because there will never be enough CBBQA members at a Florida contest for them to Qualify. So even if I made 3 California contest I could never submit 5 because 2 of my contests would not qualify.

If one of the purposes of this organization is to promote BBQ why does it matter which BBQ Competition I display the CBBQA Logo?

I agree Kristen it is time the board decides if they actually want out of state members in the CBBQA or not. I want you think about something, before you do. When Del comes to NORTH CAROLINA in April will he come here as a MEMBER of the CBBQA? When Grant and I show up to assist him are we or are we not MEMBERS of the CBBQA. Will the CBBQA add this to the list of Charity BBQ's they have done?

You really can't have this both ways. You either support and promote BBQ as a whole or as an oasis all your own.





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